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Post by 94m6hardtopz on Sept 6, 2005 16:00:52 GMT -5
t ok this will be the last time i will respond to this in this stickey, we are screwing it up... re read what i said... "GIVEN THE SAME AMMOUNT OF MOTOR POWER" the M6 6000 rpm dump will shock the rear MUCH harder then the T-brake... basically 2 1000 hp cars, one an auto with a t-brake one with a sintered iron disk manual at the moment of initial shock, the M6's rear is under MUCH more strain then the Autos... I know EXACTLY how a transbrake works. simply put , it locks 1st and reverse together so that you can spool your converter to its maximum stall speed, when you let it go it leaves the car in 1st gear and your drivetrain works as normal from that point on. The proof is in the perpetual pudding.... treat me like I am from Missouri...... and SHOW ME... we have discussed enough theory... 1. you still havent told me what failed in the 12 bolt. 2. the manual car does have tq multiplication in first(gearing deeper then 1:1 is its tq mult, same with an auto), even an auto with a locked up converter has tq multiplication in first. the converter makes the auto have even more multiplication. 3. what do you think is happening when your converter is at full stall under load and you have first and reverse locked together? when you let go of the brake, the extra tq mult from the converter and the fact that the engine is actually making power because its under a load hits the tires a lot harder then a 5K rpm part throttle clutch drop. in this way the brake works like a clutch drop only with more power. the fact is we have 8.8 ford rearends in 8 second cars making double the power you are talking about. the 8.8 ford is a twin to the 8.875" 12 bolt. i dont know how you are breaking $hit, and you obviously cant tell me why other then the 'they grenaded' excuse. ive had an 8.8 in my old 3500lb mustang with a 31 spline factory track lock, strange axles, a t/a cover and a set of 26-10 et drags run as quick as 1.49 60' times without a hiccup through a tremec with a ram 900 clutch and a 548 rwhp vortech blown 302 combo running 16-17lbs of boost.. leaving at 5K rpm and 2-3lbs of boost. put a trans kind c4 with a brake in the car, it wouldnt hook because the converter was putting the motor under load and making 16lbs on the 4000 rpm coverter. so we put 28-10.5s under it and it broke the track loc. put a spool in it and it went 1.41-1.42 60's. why did it to this? because it was leaving with more power because the engine was under load. your right the proofs in the pudding, your talking theory, i dont need theory. ive done it. |
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Post by 94m6hardtopz on Sept 6, 2005 16:08:27 GMT -5
this the theory fails because you are assuming the rearend is under load from the trans when the brake is on. its not, the converter doesnt cushinon anything, its multiplying tq through the trans which has 1st and reverse locked. then all of a sudden ...BAM! it lets go of reverse. why do your think you have to freshen a transbrake equipped auto every season? why do you think you break u joints on trans brake equipped cars? trans output shafts? because none of those parts are under load like they are when you foot brake your little 4l60e. same with the rear end.
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Post by jaberwaki on Sept 6, 2005 17:07:11 GMT -5
this one comes from tech... "Cannot keep this 12 bolt alive -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well ring and pinion #9 a fresh set of 430 us gears lasted all of 2 launches. this is really starting to irritate me.They were nice and quiet on breakin, and had a perfect pattern on set up.No one in this town of 3.2 million has been able to make this rear stand up to the launch on this bolt on car. WE put a straight bar through the housing and verified that it was straight this time also.I give up!This was the ninth ring and pinion in 13 thousand miles.Solid spacer perfect patern proper backlash 2 launches KABOOM! does anyone have an idea what is wrong I am desperate...." another from tech..... "I broke my 12 bolt Mosor spider gears with 315/35/17 Nittio's with a 3,500 launch. I don't thing the short side wall helped. There has been a lot of broken 12 bolt spider gears with m6. I'll be putting a spool it soon!" there was over 250 threads about broken 12 bolts in tech so i am not going to list them all.... PROOVE this.... go to a dyno, put your car in 1st gear(manual trans) I'll buy you a biga$$steak dinner with beer if it dyno's higher tq numbers then in 4th gear...try again.... first off stop trying to down play my posts... i said "6000" not 5000 dumps... yes there is more power that gets translated, NO it does NOT SHOCK as hard.. you ever watch a 450 hp M6 do a 6000 rpm dump on et drags??? it does not quat and go like auto, the tires kick over 1-2 times jumping and barking .... you can actually feel there pain lol..... did you hear me say anything about 8.8's??? i said 12 bolts... did you hear me say anything about high powered auto cars??? no i said M6 cars... and you STILL have not come up with ONE SINGLE SOLITARY EXAMPLE OF A M6 CAR RUNNING SINGLE DIGITS WITH A 12 BOLT.... hell man i tried to do it FOR you... i could not... i did not find a single one... i looked through SEVERAL pages of nhra and ihra time slip/setups.... i have not found ONE... first off "I" did not brake a 12 bolt, because "I" have a moser 9" in mine.... second off , there are a few examples earlyer in this post... feel free to research more if you would like ... they are all over tech... GREAT!!!! so how bout throwing a 12 bolt in there and PROOVING you point?  putting down better 60's dont proove that your drive train is getting shocked more.... hahahahahhahaa.... i can take a stock m6 car, slap a stalled 4l60 under it , shock the drivetrain LESS and still run better 60's.... neither does braking a rear that you have already abused the hell out of with the clutch... chances are it would not have lasted many more launches on EITHER set up... lol.... either way it matters not. since it is NOT a MANUAL running a 12 BOLT!!! stay on subject .... now .... CAN a 12 bolt be PURPOSE BUILT to live in a manual car.... yes.... like this... Your 12 bolt housing, straightened and tubes welded to center A set of Mark Williams steel main caps A set of Mark Williams "Pro Street" axles (prostreet is just a name for a set of his 30 or 33 spline axles with press-on style bearings with his housing ends) A 30 or 33 spline full spool A USGear gear set, ratio of your choice (deburred and set up correctly) A solid crush sleeve kit A "supershim kit' A set of Timkin bearings A Mark Williams 1350 yolk this will live for a good while..... but you aint puttin this together for the same 2000 bucks that i can buy a bullet proof 9" for.... that is EXACTLY why no one DOES... contest THAT if you can... ;D |
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Post by jaberwaki on Sept 6, 2005 17:11:17 GMT -5
uuuuhhhh... you DO know that i dont run a foot braked 4l60 right?  just so we are clear... i run a T-Braked TH400 that i converted from a M6 sintered iron disk set up that kept brakin $hit.... i have not broken a single drive train part since i switched to the Auto..... (so please stop assuming i am working from theory... you aint the only one seriouse about racing mmmmmkay? ) |
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Post by jaberwaki on Sept 6, 2005 17:25:39 GMT -5
BBBBWWWWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA
i just re read this part of your post.....
let me get this strait.....
1. you are talking about a BOOST car...
2. you werew only making 2-3 lbs of boost off the line when you were running a manual trans....
3. you were making 16 lbs when you switched to the auto(at lower rpms)
4. you think it was the T-brake that broke your REAR???
BBBBWWWWAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!
your kidding right??? please tell me you are...
BOOST off the line broke your rear.... hahahahahahaaa...
NOT THE T-BRAKE.... hahahahaaaaaaaa.....
you did not brake because of TQ multiplication....
you broke because you were spooling MORE BOOST!!!
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Post by jaberwaki on Sept 6, 2005 17:31:59 GMT -5
oh.... that all being said.. i want you to know that i mean NONE of this as a personal attack...
it is quite evident to me that you know ALOT about this sport that we both love...
we are having a disagreement... that is all, a mere discussion about differances in aproach to a simular trouble. I want you to know there is absolutly NO malice ment toward you ... ok?
dont take any of this $hit personal... My friends and i talk like this over a few beers Everytime we get home from the track...
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Post by 94m6hardtopz on Sept 6, 2005 22:03:16 GMT -5
i just like talking $hit, just like you i assume. this is how my buddies and i talk too. anyway, we will never agree on this. the point is the 8.8 and 12 bolt are twins, why they wouldnt live with the same parts baffles me. as far as the gears goes, manufacturing defect or whatever. its not the rearend is my point. gear is torque multiplication. i dont know how you can say its not. as far as boost, it was running the same pulley with both setups and with both setups it was making 16-17lbs of boost peak, but with the transbrake i could leave full boost. thats what im talking about when i say the brake is harder on the drivetrain, you leave balls out. whereas on a manual trans it takes a second for it to load and make power. not just on a boosted application, all engines require load to make power. as far as the 60' times go, i guess your right. a car that pulls 2.20s on radials is shocking the rearend as much as a car on slicks running 1.40s.  my point is, if an 8.8 ford can run 8s, a 12 bolt will too. look at the arcitecture, they are the same. unfortunatly for my argument, all the big hp lt1 m6 cars (around 650rwhp) we built at arlington motorsports had 9" in them because that was all that was available in the mid 90s. |
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Post by jaberwaki on Sept 7, 2005 12:43:07 GMT -5
you keep saying that the 8.8 and the 12 bolt are both the same... while dementions may be the same(or close) i still disagree...
the gm 305 and fordss 302 are both pushrod 5.0s but that dont make them alot alike... I am a die hard GM fan, but i have always believed ford did rear ends MUCH MUCH better...
hell i even use ford friction modifier when friends come over complaining that there rear has whined since they installed it... 9 times outa 10 it quiets right down (if it dont then i tear it apart and find out whats relly wronge)
they just seem to know more about building rears...
maybe because everone that works at ford is gay.... that might explain why they know so much about rear ends....LOL
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Post by 94m6hardtopz on Sept 7, 2005 14:04:34 GMT -5
if anything the 8.8 is weaker then the 12 bolt because the ring gear diameter of the 12 bolt is 3/4" bigger. i still love you even tho you are wrong  |
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Post by jaberwaki on Sept 7, 2005 20:44:16 GMT -5
if anything the 8.8 is weaker then the 12 bolt because the ring gear diameter of the 12 bolt is 3/4" bigger. i still love you even tho you are wrong you what? uhhh... i'm a dood....hahahahaa.... well the question i asked from the begining is, show me one.... just ONE M6 car... hell and manual car, in the single digits.... with a 12 bolt... (that has not broken it) just one.... one single one... do that and i'll concede... do it not, and YOU LOSE ;D |
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Post by 94m6hardtopz on Sept 8, 2005 0:26:08 GMT -5
my m6 car runs mid 8s on a 10 bolt. ;D seriously tho, this one doesnt run 9s but it runs mid 10s with a 12 bolt and a t56. at 136mph it has more then enough hp to be in the 9s. www.motorsporttech.com/customer_rides/djason01.htmlive driven mid 9 second cars with A3s, the reason no one has a car that runs that with a standard sincronized trans is because very few people actually have the ability to get one down the track. |
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Post by metalbeast on Sept 8, 2005 6:13:39 GMT -5
Gentlemen, kudos on the thread! I think you both have valid arguements and I appreciate your civility toward one another. Would you 2 mind if I moved this to the Rearend section?
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Post by 94m6hardtopz on Sept 8, 2005 11:10:45 GMT -5
ill move it
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Post by jaberwaki on Sept 8, 2005 13:18:13 GMT -5
With a weak 1.78 60-foot, he ran a blistering 10.5 at 136 1.78 now you know that was a VERY bad example... i cut 1.78's on a 10 bolt... |
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Post by 94m6hardtopz on Sept 8, 2005 14:23:07 GMT -5
With a weak 1.78 60-foot, he ran a blistering 10.5 at 136 1.78 now you know that was a VERY bad example... i cut 1.78's on a 10 bolt... you said yourself 60' isnt an indicator of drivetrain stress.  |
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Post by jaberwaki on Sept 8, 2005 15:09:50 GMT -5
hahaha..... true... but in this case, with THAT mph ....1.78 means he is babying it out of the hole, that is not the product of a 6000 rpm clutch dump of death
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Post by 94m6hardtopz on Sept 9, 2005 0:52:28 GMT -5
so it does matter? |
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Post by AAron on Sept 9, 2005 9:19:51 GMT -5
man im gone fore half a day an bam i get people coming in my section anyways, you can find arguments to support both. it all really depends on your setup, and to find 2 identical cars is impossible because you are talking about 2 diffrent transmissions. so it is compareing apples and oranges. but great disscussion oh and i went the Ford 9" route on my '01 M6 that i had |
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Post by jaberwaki on Sept 12, 2005 3:02:17 GMT -5
you know another question came to mind while i was off for the weekend... Why? we have been argueing can can can... but not the more important. why? why , knowing that the 9" is stronger then the 12 bolt, would you buy a 12 bolt for an M6 car? just to prove you can? |
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Post by 94m6hardtopz on Sept 12, 2005 10:00:17 GMT -5
you dont need a pro stock rear in a six second car 'flattop'.  |
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Post by AAron on Sept 12, 2005 13:11:32 GMT -5
you know another question came to mind while i was off for the weekend... Why? we have been argueing can can can... but not the more important. why? why , knowing that the 9" is stronger then the 12 bolt, would you buy a 12 bolt for an M6 car? just to prove you can? the answer i get is i want to stay GM. which is kinda stupid because most of the parts are new manufature from people like strange and mosier |
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Post by metalbeast on Sept 12, 2005 20:30:53 GMT -5
you know another question came to mind while i was off for the weekend... Why? we have been argueing can can can... but not the more important. why? why , knowing that the 9" is stronger then the 12 bolt, would you buy a 12 bolt for an M6 car? just to prove you can? I think my answer to that would be, it depends on how much you have and what your goals are. For example, N2ODave, who is running an SBC2.2 headed, Nitroused 396 that is set up to run 9s with a T56, a 9" makes sense. But for me, with an LE AFR headed 396 an T56 with goals of running low 11 high 10 second times, a 12 bolt is enough. Just my $0.02. |
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Post by jaberwaki on Sept 13, 2005 3:18:23 GMT -5
i am still confused jeff..... they both cost basically the same amount... heck in some cases the 9" costs LESS... why settle for what you think is enough? when you can have for the same price absolute peace of mind and as for wanting to stay gm... you answered yourself... most people dont by FORD 9"s they buy moser or strange... its just a ford design... i have heard this from SEVERAL people... then watched them go dead silent when i asked why they were running SVO 30# injectors... lol... trust me... no gm guys are gonna mistake your car for a mustake i mean mustang , just because you have a 9" rear... and you aint gonna get invited to join a mustang car club either... if you want to run a GM rear... then send a letter to gm requesting they build a 9" equivilent that you can afford... |
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Post by metalbeast on Sept 13, 2005 7:29:44 GMT -5
i am still confused jeff..... they both cost basically the same amount... heck in some cases the 9" costs LESS... why settle for what you think is enough? when you can have for the same price absolute peace of mind and as for wanting to stay gm... you answered yourself... most people dont by FORD 9"s they buy moser or strange... its just a ford design... i have heard this from SEVERAL people... then watched them go dead silent when i asked why they were running SVO 30# injectors... lol... trust me... no gm guys are gonna mistake your car for a mustake i mean mustang , just because you have a 9" rear... and you aint gonna get invited to join a mustang car club either... if you want to run a GM rear... then send a letter to gm requesting they build a 9" equivilent that you can afford... Hmmm...Good point Jaber. I was misinformed and was under the impression that the 9" was significantly more expensive than the 12 bolt. Now let me ask this; I know Moser and Strange make direct 12 rearend swaps for the 10 bolt rearends. Is there a 9" that can be directly swapped out without lots of fabrication and headache to do so? |
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Post by 94m6hardtopz on Sept 13, 2005 15:14:59 GMT -5
making the brakes work on the 9" moser's is a real pain in the ass. none of the 9" rearends i have come across are available for use with either style of ABS (3 or 4 channel)
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